Daily Kos

Don't Support "24" (w/ poll)

Wed May 16, 2007 at 08:13:51 AM PDT

The Republican debate reminded the world again last night the way in which 24 has helped to poison the political culture of this country.

At one point, the candidates were asked how they'd respond to an absurd hypothetical situation striaght from the show. Tom Tancredo got the point (and the applause): "We need Jack Bauer," he said.

Jack Bauer is a torturer-- perhaps the most popular torturer in the history of American popular culturer. For details, you can check out this video or this article, both from Jane Mayer and The New Yorker.

In the article, Mayer relates this amazing anecdote:

U.S. Army Brigadier General Patrick Finnegan, the dean of the United States Military Academy at West Point, flew to Southern California to meet with the creative team behind "24." Finnegan, who was accompanied by three of the most experienced military and F.B.I. interrogators in the country, arrived on the set as the crew was filming. At first, Finnegan—wearing an immaculate Army uniform, his chest covered in ribbons and medals—aroused confusion: he was taken for an actor and was asked by someone what time his "call" was.

In fact, Finnegan and the others had come to voice their concern that the show’s central political premise—that the letter of American law must be sacrificed for the country’s security—was having a toxic effect. In their view, the show promoted unethical and illegal behavior and had adversely affected the training and performance of real American soldiers. "I’d like them to stop," Finnegan said of the show’s producers. "They should do a show where torture backfires."

According to a Brigadier General in the US Army, "the show promoted unethical and illegal behavior and had adversely affected the training and performance of real American soldiers."

Can't you just watch Heroes instead?

Poll

Is it okay to watch 24?

43%65 votes
56%83 votes

| 148 votes | Vote | Results

Tags: 24, television, torture (all tags) :: Previous Tag Versions

Permalink | 118 comments

  •  It's a frickin TV Show (12+ / 0-)

    Geez lighten up!

    Carry the battle to them. Don't let them bring it to you. Put them on the defensive and don't ever apologize for anything. Harry S. Truman

    by deepsouthdoug on Wed May 16, 2007 at 08:06:42 AM PDT

  •  its a stupid show (1+ / 0-)

    Recommended by:
    neroden

    John W. McCain, Bush's third term.

    by aaraujo on Wed May 16, 2007 at 08:07:15 AM PDT

  •  Sure you can watch it (2+ / 0-)

    Recommended by:
    shaharazade, Allogenes

    I mean you can watch it... but almost all TV is shit in the first place... if you are not going to watch 24 because of its effect on American Culture then you shouldn't watch anything except for Countdown, The Daily Show, and the Colbert Report

    -7, -4.46 "You see the world as it is and ask why, I dream of things that never were and ask why not?"

    by PoliOperative on Wed May 16, 2007 at 08:08:58 AM PDT

  •  24's a high camp comedy (5+ / 0-)

    seriously now. Jack Bauer is the new Chuck Norris and CTU gets invaded and assaulted every season. Not to mention people who take drills to the arm are back at their stations working in 2 "hours." And it only takes 5 mintues to get anywhere in the Los Angeles megalopolis.

    Anyone who can't see that this is a TV Show (like those Republican idiots running for president) and no where close to real life is a freking idiot.

    lurking surreptitiously ask about Central PA Kossacks(-0.12, -3.33)

    by terrypinder on Wed May 16, 2007 at 08:15:17 AM PDT

    •  Real fuckin' funny. (1+ / 0-)

      Recommended by:
      shaharazade

      Har-dee-har-har.

      •  it isn't real, not even close to reality (2+ / 0-)

        Recommended by:
        TexDem, xxdr zombiexx

        i laugh at the stupidity of the plot lines.

        lurking surreptitiously ask about Central PA Kossacks(-0.12, -3.33)

        by terrypinder on Wed May 16, 2007 at 08:29:30 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  Cool. (4+ / 0-)

          When I say "propaganda" I actually mean "psychological manipulation".

          The stupid plots are essential to keep the attention of American TV viewers. Complex plots confuse American TV viewers and they won't watch.

          The Neocon values are embedded in the stupid plots.

          When Jack decided he neded to use a defibrillator to torture harshly interrogate a terror suspect, it was done in a context that encourages the viewer to support Jack over their initial repulsion at torture.

          Jack Good. America Good. Torture Good.

          If Americans could really pay attention to complex plots, it would be a different reality.

          •  "24" is a campaign ad for Repub Party! (1+ / 0-)

            Recommended by:
            xxdr zombiexx

            Dems will not hold impeachment hearings while Bill is campaigning with Hillary.

            by annefrank on Wed May 16, 2007 at 08:39:29 AM PDT

            [ Parent ]

          •  I didn't get that at all. (0+ / 0-)

            It was an appalling decision to make on his part and totally revolted the woman he was in love with.  

            Its very subjective.  You take away what you want to take away.  Are there ingorant authoritarian-supporting bigots who take away a bad message?  Sure.  But these folks will view just about anything in way that's different than the way we would view it.

            •  But he did it. (1+ / 0-)

              Recommended by:
              Canadian Reader

              the rest of the plot is filler to get to the situational ethic part.

              The hope is that the situational ethic part - when the torture is presented as working - will have at least some people reconsidering thier biases against it.

              "Look - torture is a good thing if it saves LA, right?"

              Repeat every episode and every season.

              •  It doesn't always show that it works. (1+ / 0-)

                Recommended by:
                xxdr zombiexx

                This season, Jack tortured his brother and received incomplete information.  

                And the whole story of 24 is about a character who does operate outside the rule of law and PAYS for it...he is a tortured soul himself.  He demonstrates that there really is not place in our society for a person who is willing to do the things he does.

          •  The power of the script (1+ / 0-)

            Recommended by:
            Canadian Reader

            Even worse, when Jack Bauer uses torture to get information, it works.  Every damned time (or almost every time, I would guess, I've never watched the show...).

            That's not the reality in which real intelligence agents or even interrogators work. That's a reflection of the demands of writing for TV, when what would normally be months of painstaking, mostly boring investigation, tracking down details and assembling evidence, must be condensed into about 40 minutes of script, which must follow a particular formula (crisis plot points right before the scheduled commercial breaks, short, choppy scenes, and pacing designed to maintain viewer interest past 20 minutes of annoying but required commercials scattered throughout).

            Torture works on "24" because the script is on Jack's side.  In the real world, nothing follows the script, no matter how much this Administration and the media try to spin it.

            I'm still waiting for The Onion to do an article about Bush nominating Jack Bauer for some high-level cabinet post... there are times I'm not sure he realizes that it's just a TV show.  

          •  Plot is complex AND stupid (1+ / 0-)

            Recommended by:
            Canadian Reader

            Just because the plot is stupid doesn't mean it's simple. The plots have been very complex with multiple story lines, multiple characters and shifting allegiances. You have to juggle a lot of facts in your head to follow the story. Compare that to TV or movie plots from the 70's with their linear exposition.

            I have other complaints about the show, but it's not simple plots. Simple, one-dimensional characters, yes. Unrealistic scenarios, yes. Writing that jumped the shark, yes.

    •  Maybe you missed the news (2+ / 0-)

      Recommended by:
      Canadian Reader, phenry

      The military is concerned by the impact the show has had on its recruits -- that they are O.K. with torture and sacrificing civilians -- so much so that they had Sutherland speak at West Point to say it's just a "TV show"

      Coming Soon -- to an Internet connection near you: Armisticeproject.org

      by FischFry on Wed May 16, 2007 at 08:45:45 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  then those people are I D I O T S (0+ / 0-)

        if they are taking it seriously, they are stupid, end of story.

        lurking surreptitiously ask about Central PA Kossacks(-0.12, -3.33)

        by terrypinder on Wed May 16, 2007 at 08:46:25 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  Clearly they ARE taking it seriously. (0+ / 0-)

          Recommended by:
          shaharazade

          So that's a problem, isn't it?

          •  Well, Then That's THE Problem (1+ / 0-)

            Recommended by:
            terrypinder

            Not 24, the fact that people can't tell "real" from "make-believe".


            You can have your "Under God" back when I get my "Liberty and Justice For All" back.

            by karateexplosions on Wed May 16, 2007 at 08:58:53 AM PDT

            [ Parent ]

            •  That isn't a problem (1+ / 0-)

              Recommended by:
              Neon Mama

              it's a universal, uncorrectable fact of human life.

            •  That's just absurd (2+ / 0-)

              Recommended by:
              Canadian Reader, Neon Mama

              You're the one who can't tell "real" from "make-believe." Some of our troops have not shown sufficient regard for the rights of Iraqis and Afghans. That's real. Things that influence their behavior are real, too -- even if they're just "make believe."

              Coming Soon -- to an Internet connection near you: Armisticeproject.org

              by FischFry on Wed May 16, 2007 at 09:24:03 AM PDT

              [ Parent ]

              •  it isn't absurd (0+ / 0-)

                if people are saying "well it works on 24 so I'm going to use the same techniques in real life!"

                like karateexplosions I have the same concerns, if West Point, the premier military school on the entire freaking planet, is graduating students that become the officers that are the backbone of the Army cannot distinguish the real world from a poorly constructed TV show, then we have worse problems then I thought.

                lurking surreptitiously ask about Central PA Kossacks(-0.12, -3.33)

                by terrypinder on Wed May 16, 2007 at 09:28:01 AM PDT

                [ Parent ]

                •  It isn't that they can't disinguish (0+ / 0-)

                  Of course, they can tell the difference. To suggest that they can't tell the difference trvilializes the real scope and nature of the problem. It's not that they can't tell the difference, it's jus tthat their conduct my be influenced by popular culture, as well as their training -- especially when the pop culture is in some ways more "realistic" and pervasive than the brief academic classroom presentation they may get on human rights during their training. It's about the imprint on their instinctual neural pathways. It's not whether they can tell the difference, but how their conduct in real world situations may be affected by a variety of prior inputs, including those from the world of popular fiction.

                  Coming Soon -- to an Internet connection near you: Armisticeproject.org

                  by FischFry on Wed May 16, 2007 at 09:48:39 AM PDT

                  [ Parent ]

                  •  So Which Popular Television Show of the Time (0+ / 0-)

                    Was responsible for the Inquisition?

                    The Holocaust?

                    The lion pits?


                    You can have your "Under God" back when I get my "Liberty and Justice For All" back.

                    by karateexplosions on Wed May 16, 2007 at 12:17:25 PM PDT

                    [ Parent ]

                    •  Not sure about the "lion pits" (0+ / 0-)

                      Inquisition can be blamed on the writings of church scholars that dominated societal organization for centuries -- the Bible etc... Before TV, but the Church was the big show in town during those days.... The Holocaust comes out of that history, and "Mein Kampf" -- again, pre-TV days, but certainly influenced by popular culture. From the "Merchant of Venice" to the radio rantings of Father Coughlin and his European counterparts.

                      The lion pits? Well, they WERE the popular entertainment of the day, so it's a blending of cause and effect -- instant pudding.

                      Coming Soon -- to an Internet connection near you: Armisticeproject.org

                      by FischFry on Wed May 16, 2007 at 03:42:56 PM PDT

                      [ Parent ]

                      •  So When Do You Get Around (0+ / 0-)

                        to banning The Bible, the church, Mein Kampf, and the Merchang of Venice?

                        You could have yourself a good old fashioned book burning.  And people will still torture each other, because torture's roots are not in books, television shows, movies, music, or art.  


                        You can have your "Under God" back when I get my "Liberty and Justice For All" back.

                        by karateexplosions on Wed May 16, 2007 at 06:11:52 PM PDT

                        [ Parent ]

                        •  Another straw man (0+ / 0-)

                          No one said "24" should be banned. That wouldn't even be legal. It's been a few years since I went to law school, but I have a vague recollection that the 1st Anendment to the US Constitution prohibits government restrictions on the speech of its citizens. Presumptions against prior restraints and all that.

                          Any other straw men you feel like beating the shit out of?

                          Coming Soon -- to an Internet connection near you: Armisticeproject.org

                          by FischFry on Wed May 16, 2007 at 08:44:52 PM PDT

                          [ Parent ]

        •  In other words, your army is getting (0+ / 0-)

          a bunch of recruits who are majorly stupid?

          Well, yeah, I guess they are. That kind of is the recruiting filter nowadays, isn't it? Smart people can look at the news and deduce that, hey, no matter what wonderful benefits the recruiters lie promise, getting into the army at this time is a very bad option. People who don't figure this out have failed an intelligence test right there.

          That doesn't say that all new recruits are dumb. Some smarter kids must notice the evident drawbacks and sign up anyway. But the war, and the profiteering, and the rotten abuse of veterans, are all tilting the scales in the direction of a far larger proportion of stupid recruits.

          So they have to be getting a lot of people who don't distinguish well between fiction and reality. Some of them may not even quite get the concept of fiction; they'll take 24 literally because they have been taught to take everything literally including the Bible.

          What's the army to do?

          Take them anyway (sigh), and try to mold them into usable soldiers.

          24 isn't helping.

          Folly is fractal: the closer you look at it, the more of it there is.

          by Canadian Reader on Wed May 16, 2007 at 11:17:02 AM PDT

          [ Parent ]

      •  The military should be more concerned (1+ / 0-)

        Recommended by:
        Allogenes

        about the memos from Gonazales and others that put the idea of torture on the table in the first place...not to mention their own high ranking officials who seemingly instituted practices that resulted in it happening.

      •  IIRC (3+ / 0-)

        Recommended by:
        Canadian Reader, Joe Bob, jxg

        The cops were concerned about the Dirty Harry Effect. There was another concern about people going "All Rambo."

        Perhaps this is a prime time to bring up the necessity of literature and the arts as an important aspect of education. We obviously have too many students who are unable to differentiate between fiction and non-fiction.

        Mariachi Mama Candidate Bickering Moratorium! Signatory to the Carnacki Petition

        by kredwyn on Wed May 16, 2007 at 08:54:05 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  yes, that's exactly it (2+ / 0-)

          Recommended by:
          kredwyn, Neon Mama

          lurking surreptitiously ask about Central PA Kossacks(-0.12, -3.33)

          by terrypinder on Wed May 16, 2007 at 08:55:05 AM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  Hey... (1+ / 0-)

            think that the interview went pretty okay. She's sent me a "writing/editing" test as the next stage.

            Mariachi Mama Candidate Bickering Moratorium! Signatory to the Carnacki Petition

            by kredwyn on Wed May 16, 2007 at 09:06:56 AM PDT

            [ Parent ]

          •  No, it's not "exactly" it (1+ / 0-)

            Recommended by:
            Canadian Reader

            It's not that they can't distinguish between fiction and non-fiction. It's that they are learning values and thinking patterns from fiction -- which, given the hours we spend in front of the TV, may be just as powerful as their training, when it comes to determining how they may act instinctually in a life-or-death situation.

            Coming Soon -- to an Internet connection near you: Armisticeproject.org

            by FischFry on Wed May 16, 2007 at 09:21:06 AM PDT

            [ Parent ]

            •  Well then... (0+ / 0-)

              perhaps we should just stop writing/showing fiction...indeed...we need to eradicate any form of fiction that we disagree with in order to make sure that they learn the "right" values and thinking patterns.

              Jeepers...I grew up with "We have ways of making you talk" a la Hogan's Heroes and the A-Team blowing the crap out of everything that moved. Yet somehow I managed to get through umpteen number of years without actually making anything go boom.

              The "Jack Bauer" defense reminds me of the case against Judas Priest re: the kid's suicide...and the whole "you're kids are going to Hell because they play DnD" thing that someone tried on my mother. She laughed and pointed out that it wasn't her daughter who puked in the oven at some other kid's "parents out of town" party.

              It's not the TV show. It's the fact that POTUS and AG have both given tacit approval to use tactics that the generals blanche at.

              Mariachi Mama Candidate Bickering Moratorium! Signatory to the Carnacki Petition

              by kredwyn on Wed May 16, 2007 at 10:07:27 AM PDT

              [ Parent ]

              •  It isn't a "defense" (1+ / 0-)

                Recommended by:
                Canadian Reader

                No one's offering a "Jack Bauer defense" -- you're trivialing a real concern by linking it to the so-called "Twinkie defense." No one's saying troops aren't responsible for their own actions -- but there seems to be some evidence that 24 is influencing their feelings and possibly their actions. Heck, maybe it's influencing POTUS and the AG, and/or their advisors.

                No one's saying that censorship is the answer -- not advocating eradicating anything. But, why give the arbiters of free culture a pass? Why rip into FOX News, and nt FOX entertainment? Entertainers are somehow immune to concerns of social responsibility, even though thy have more influence than the average joe, and probably more influence than even the President (when it comes to shaping the attitudes of adolescents)? That makes sense to you?

                Coming Soon -- to an Internet connection near you: Armisticeproject.org

                by FischFry on Wed May 16, 2007 at 10:17:48 AM PDT

                [ Parent ]

                •  Because news is news... (0+ / 0-)

                  and entertainment is entertainment. They aren't the same thing...nor should they be seen as the same thing.

                  Look. I'm influenced by a lot of things. Mostly I'm influenced by the fact that while today, for you, it's 24...tomorrow it might be something else for someone else...and yesterday it was Piss Christ for someone else...or obscenity in James Joyce.

                  No, I'm not saying that 24 is on par with Joyce.

                  What I am saying is that for whatever reason, culture is looking at the issue of torture or "enhanced interrogation techniques." And it's not just in 24. It's in BSG...and on other movies/shows. The question is being raised as to what it is and so on.

                  Instead of clamping down on it and hiding from it, use it as a teachable moment. That's what the faculty at West Point is doing.

                  And yes...I see that you are supporting a soft form of censorship. And creative artist types don't have a responsibility to make you comfortable...

                  Mariachi Mama Candidate Bickering Moratorium! Signatory to the Carnacki Petition

                  by kredwyn on Wed May 16, 2007 at 12:14:13 PM PDT

                  [ Parent ]

                  •  NOt soft censorship (0+ / 0-)

                    If someone is glorifying torture, I would oppose them. If they are running for office, I would vote against them, and speak out against them. If they are doing it in their "creative art," I would criticize them for that. I don't see the difference. Why should we challenge politicians and not artists who make a point that would be roundly criticized if it weren't "art"? The want to make a statement in their art, fine. They should be "big boys" and take the criticism that comes with that statement. The fact that its out there means that West Point has to make the best of it, to see if they can teach a contrary lesson. But, if one is going to criticize the Administration for tacit or even explicit support for violationg human rights, why shouldn't we also criticize artists who make "art" that conveys a similar message?

                    Coming Soon -- to an Internet connection near you: Armisticeproject.org

                    by FischFry on Wed May 16, 2007 at 03:27:23 PM PDT

                    [ Parent ]

                    •  And who said... (0+ / 0-)

                      that you couldn't criticize? Most forms of creative expression have critics...even Shakespeare. But that's part and parcel of   what happens whe you explore topics that people find objectionable, eh?

                      Actually...I don't see the writers/producers of either 24 or Battlestar Galactica whining about the criticism. Do you?

                      Oppose them for the glorification of torture...that's fine. However, you need to realise that both are fictional TV shows that deal with topics that folks find to be problematic. Granted, BSG does it better. But still...I prefer Hustle to either show <shrug>.

                      And yes, it means that West Point faculty members have a prime opportunity for teaching what would normally be an abstract concept by way of a tangible. If they can't do that, then they need to go back to grad school and learn a bit more about pedagogy.

                      Mariachi Mama Candidate Bickering Moratorium! Signatory to the Carnacki Petition

                      by kredwyn on Wed May 16, 2007 at 07:30:38 PM PDT

                      [ Parent ]

                      •  All those jumping down diarist's throat... (0+ / 0-)

                        The diarist criticized 24 and the part it has played in fostering a disturbing groupthink among recruits regarding how to conduct themselves...and all these people jumped all over him...going on about how it's just a TV show, and it's art, and how dare he post this criticism. Those folks aren't interested in hearing any criticism, and attack anyone offering a sensible point that is supported by the military's own experience.

                        As for West Point faculty, I doubt that they have learned much about pedagogy. People studying for a Masters or a Ph.D. in Education learn something about pedagogy. University faculty in other subject areas have little or no study in pedagogy. One hopes that somewhere along the way they have seen some models of good pedagogy they might emulate, but that's the best you can hope for....

                        Coming Soon -- to an Internet connection near you: Armisticeproject.org

                        by FischFry on Wed May 16, 2007 at 08:54:36 PM PDT

                        [ Parent ]

                        •  West Point Faculty... (0+ / 0-)

                          One member of that faculty was one Wes Clark complete with his higher degree in Economics.

                          I'd suggest that you go to the West Point website and check out the range of faculty teaching there. Here's a link to one Lit prof with a PhD from Yale. Another? Hmmm...how bout this prof with an MS in Applied Mathematics from...RPI.

                          I suspect that there are a few profs at West Point who've actually thought about what they're teaching, why they're teaching it...and how to make lemonade out of some topics found in 24 & BSG.

                          I have a PhD that isn't in Ed. And I've taken the classes in pedagogy. My pedagogy prof. once taught at VMI...after he got his PhD in Early American Lit. with a diss on Emerson.

                          Well...duh. Of course there are people who are going to say that it's just a TV show. For one, it is. For two, critics should expect to receive comments from people who disagree with his or her position, which is what has happened. Critics also don't get a pass because they criticize...or do they because you agree with the critics?

                          There have been people who agree with the diarist and there are people who disagree with the diarist. I'm thinking that's the way a discussion on the merits, or lack of merit, the show has.

                          Or am I mistaken? Was everyone supposed to agree with the diarist?

                          Mariachi Mama Candidate Bickering Moratorium! Signatory to the Carnacki Petition

                          by kredwyn on Wed May 16, 2007 at 09:23:29 PM PDT

                          [ Parent ]

                          •  Didn't question West Point faculty intelligence (0+ / 0-)

                            Just noted that most college professors have studied their areas of expertise, but not made much study in pedagogy. I believe most universities do offer a basic primer in teaching for new faculty, but they don't get the training given someone with a degree in elementary education or secondary education.

                            It's not expected that everyone would agree with the diarist -- but all these folks screaming censorship aren't really arguing the same point to begin with -- they're throwing up straw men. Or they belittle the troops that are influenced by such dramas. Or both.

                            Coming Soon -- to an Internet connection near you: Armisticeproject.org

                            by FischFry on Wed May 16, 2007 at 09:36:04 PM PDT

                            [ Parent ]

                            •  Honestly? (0+ / 0-)

                              they don't get the training given someone with a degree in elementary education or secondary education.

                              Thank goodness. I've met and talked with some Ed majors who were required to take the same pedagogy classes I was during my doctoral program. Some were alright...others...not so much. And those others were only interested in getting the MA for the raise. They couldn't have cared less about the classes or what they were supposed to be learning. My father, a physics prof, has a better grasp of pedagogy than some of those Ed. majors.

                              For those, like myself who question (not scream) the soft censorship issue...the show is a work of fiction. And it's not even a good work of fiction. They aren't telling anyone to shut up. What they are saying is that it should be addressed for what it is a work of fiction. if it influences people, then use that influence to get to the heart of the issue rather than complaining about how the writer/producer is a right wing propagandist. Cause that sounds a lot like the way the Right bitches about how X, Y, or Z artist is just promoting a leftist agenda...and should be shunned.

                              As for belittling the cadets at West Point...I seriously doubt that's happening. They are the age of students I currently teach, which is about 18-20ish. The students I have sometimes need some sort of concrete example in order to make an abstract concept more understandable. Is that a bad thing? No. It's fairly standard re: development of skill sets in young adults, which is what the troops are.

                              I have used CSI: Miami and its sometimes problematic relationship with the Bill of Rights as a teaching moment. I even brought in a study done by Maricopa County re: The CSI Effect as part of the larger class discussion. It's worked really well when it comes to getting students to think critically about fiction, reality, and TV.

                              And students, troops, cadets need to be aware that there is a difference between fiction and reality. I think that the faculty at West Point is perfectly capable of dealing with this issue. It's at least as capable as other univerities and colleges...and maybe more so because of the officer training involved in being a West Point cadet.

                              But ultimately, the show is still a work of fiction.

                              Mariachi Mama Candidate Bickering Moratorium! Signatory to the Carnacki Petition

                              by kredwyn on Wed May 16, 2007 at 10:04:54 PM PDT

                              [ Parent ]

                              •  Are you sure? (0+ / 0-)

                                "ultimately, the show is still a work of fiction"

                                Are you sure that there isn't some super-agent that has saved this country from nuclear annihilation repeatedly? Are you sure that we haven't had two African-American Presidents? Are you sure it's fiction? Didn't you see today's story that some scientists now question the forensic 'science' behind the report that the bullet fragments all come from the same batch of Oswald's bullets? Don't you see the pattern? Fiction? Where do you think they get the dieas for those stories? From CTU records of course. Never heard of CTU? Of course not. They're super-secret.

                                Coming Soon -- to an Internet connection near you: Armisticeproject.org

                                by FischFry on Thu May 17, 2007 at 08:07:58 PM PDT

                                [ Parent ]

                                •  perhaps you should join... (0+ / 0-)

                                  and spend the next month writing the script. I'm really looking forward to it...have started thinking about the first few scenes. Though I'm still kinda stuck on the main problem.

                                  Fiction.

                                  James Joyce wrote a novel about the day in the life of a bloke. Chris Carter wrote shows that explored his nightmares as well as the myths and urban legends that surround us. John  le Carré wrote about the super secret world of spies. And MI-5 does 24 far better than 24 does it. Charles de Lint writes novels about normal people who have daily brushes with Fey. Thomas Harris writes about Hannibal Lecter...a guy who'd truly scare the crap out of me if he weren't fictional. And Umberto Eco writes novels about medieval monasteries that suffer from an over abundance of imagination...

                                  What is your pattern?

                                  And yeah...unless you're living in some sort of alternate universe, which is always possible given the massive rips in the space time continum caused by H.G. Wells's Time Machine, I'm pretty sure that it's fiction.

                                  Cool on the shrapnel thing. I'll look for it. Might help in a class I was thinking about teaching next semester.

                                  Mariachi Mama Candidate Bickering Moratorium! Signatory to the Carnacki Petition

                                  by kredwyn on Thu May 17, 2007 at 10:01:27 PM PDT

                                  [ Parent ]

      •  I'm More Concerned that West Point (7+ / 0-)

        Is graduating people who can't distinguish television from reality.

        Did Wile E. Coyote also speak at West Point to inform our new class of Army Officers that falling off a cliff does, in fact, injure/kill you?

        Maybe they could get Hugh Laurie from "House" to show up and explain that just because YOU have a case of the sniffles, that does NOT mean that you have a fatal protein deficiency caused by a tapeworm living in your intestines?

        Then maybe the Law & Order actors could go around to police academies explaining that despite what you see roughly once a week on television, most officers never have to draw their weapon in the line of duty?

        Then William Shatner and Patrick Stewart can help explain that Star Trek was not based on actual events, the cast of Jericho can explain that nuclear bombs have not actually been set off in Denver, and Brit Hume can explain that Fox News isn't really "news".


        You can have your "Under God" back when I get my "Liberty and Justice For All" back.

        by karateexplosions on Wed May 16, 2007 at 08:57:56 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  Gotta watch out for House. (1+ / 0-)

          Recommended by:
          kredwyn

          Med schools are going to have to start explaining to students that they really can't practice medicine while being addicted to controlled substances.  They also might need reminding that anyone behaving the way House behaves would have been sued on a weekly basis.

          •  Seriously... (0+ / 0-)

            I love that show. But if he was ever my doctor, I'd have real issues with his addictions.

            Course I'm betting that there are more doctors out there with addictions to stuff than we care to think about...

            Mariachi Mama Candidate Bickering Moratorium! Signatory to the Carnacki Petition

            by kredwyn on Wed May 16, 2007 at 10:09:08 AM PDT

            [ Parent ]

        •  Thank you for that childishness (2+ / 0-)

          Recommended by:
          jxg

          Nothing like insincerity in a debate about how to educate troops on need to respect human rights. I don't see them trying to get wild weaponry, including giant springs and rocket-powered roller skates, from the Acme Co. -- on the other hand, we have seeen My Lai, and Abu Ghraib, and a whole lot of complaints from Iraqis and Afghans about how the troops have dealt with them.

          Coming Soon -- to an Internet connection near you: Armisticeproject.org

          by FischFry on Wed May 16, 2007 at 09:17:50 AM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  Oh Please (0+ / 0-)

            Let me check my calendar, but I believe My Lai happened  at least a couple of years before "24" was a twinkling in some executive producer's eye.  

            And honestly, do you really think that if "24" had never seen a single episode, that Abu Ghraib would never have happened?  Of course not.  "24" didn't popularize torture -- torture has been popular for thousands of damn years.  

            If you want to blame somebody, blame the fucking idiots who can't tell the difference between television fiction and the real world.  

            And by the way, if there was an Acme Co. selling roller skates and rocket backpacks, you know some people would be buying that shit.  The fucking idiots, specifically.


            You can have your "Under God" back when I get my "Liberty and Justice For All" back.

            by karateexplosions on Wed May 16, 2007 at 12:13:35 PM PDT

            [ Parent ]

            •  Make up your mind (0+ / 0-)

              Does 24 have nothing to do with U.S. troops disregard for the rights of local populations, or is the problem that the troops can't distinguish between the fictional world of 24, and the horrific reality they live in every day?

              Coming Soon -- to an Internet connection near you: Armisticeproject.org

              by FischFry on Wed May 16, 2007 at 03:45:33 PM PDT

              [ Parent ]

            •  BTW, if you're right (0+ / 0-)

              If you're right that our soldiers can't distinguish, and that they do allow programs like 24 to unduly influence their actions, that isn't an argument against urging greater social responsibility from the show's writers and producers. It's an argument for demanding it.

              Coming Soon -- to an Internet connection near you: Armisticeproject.org

              by FischFry on Wed May 16, 2007 at 03:49:18 PM PDT

              [ Parent ]

              •  The Reality Is (0+ / 0-)

                That "24" did not invent torture, that torture has existed since long before "24" has been on the air, that torture will likely continue long after "24" has stopped running repeats on TVLand or Nick at Nite, and whatever influence a television show has had on whether or not our overseas troops torture other human beings pales in comparison to the directives they are receiving from their own chain of command, starting at The Decider.

                If a soldier who otherwise would not torture decides to do so after watching "24", then the blame for that lies at the military's feet for ridiculously poor intelligence and/or mental health screening.  

                Art, literature, film, and music are not to blame for torture... and proclaiming otherwise is not far away from a particularly dangerous brand of censorship that I would prefer to have no part of.


                You can have your "Under God" back when I get my "Liberty and Justice For All" back.

                by karateexplosions on Wed May 16, 2007 at 06:21:09 PM PDT

                [ Parent ]

                •  No one said "24" invented torture (0+ / 0-)

                  Nice straw man you had there. You really beat it all to hell, too.

                  Coming Soon -- to an Internet connection near you: Armisticeproject.org

                  by FischFry on Wed May 16, 2007 at 08:40:40 PM PDT

                  [ Parent ]

                  •  Guess I Just Thought (1+ / 0-)

                    Recommended by:
                    kredwyn

                    You shouldn't get all the straw-man fun on this thread.

                    I'd love to stay and chat further, but I just watched Scarface and have a sudden, irresistible and uncontrollable urge to start a drug cartel in southern Florida.  It's truly out of my hands and I'm sure you'll understand, as you are most keenly aware of the awesome and inevitable power that entertainment media has over all our actions.


                    You can have your "Under God" back when I get my "Liberty and Justice For All" back.

                    by karateexplosions on Wed May 16, 2007 at 08:54:03 PM PDT

                    [ Parent ]

                    •  You live in a fantasy world (0+ / 0-)

                      You might not be about to start a drug cartel, because it's not in your world. But, there are doubtless a few dealers who were influenced by such movies and other popular entertainments that glorify crimnnal drug culture -- because they grew up in a corner of the world where that was not only possible, but may have seeemed like the best or most realistic way to earn a living. You're not abusing civilans or torturing terror suspects. Good for you. On the other hand, you're not in Iraq having to deal with terror suspects, or worried that each patrol might be your last.

                      Those things in popular culture that influence your life -- maybe they're ads on TV, or something else relevant to your existence -- they're out there. You may pooh-pooh it, but almost everything you do, every day, has been influenced by popular culture. The way you think -- it's all a complicated mix of the culture you've been exposed to, and the circumstances of your life. And somewehere, you learned how to be a complete jackass. Was it from your family, or watching TV?

                      Coming Soon -- to an Internet connection near you: Armisticeproject.org

                      by FischFry on Wed May 16, 2007 at 09:03:20 PM PDT

                      [ Parent ]

        •  same concern, see above. (0+ / 0-)

          lurking surreptitiously ask about Central PA Kossacks(-0.12, -3.33)

          by terrypinder on Wed May 16, 2007 at 09:29:16 AM PDT

          [ Parent ]

  •  It is OK to watch unvarnished propaganda. (5+ / 0-)

    As americans you are absolutely bathed in it: you might as well be aware of it.

    It is sufficient to understand you are watching something that wants to alter your attitudes so you can discount the effort. Just be aware.

    24, a program I consider an excellent example of Neocon Propaganda was brought up last night by GOP candidates each trying to appear more stupid and mean-spirited than the next.

    As Romney called for Gitmo's population to be doubled he and Tancredo and Guilani went into what can only be described as a celebration of torture and human rights violations. Somebody even said "I am looking for Jack Baurer".

    Debating the treatment of foreign detainees at Tuesday night's debate, former Massachusetts Gov. Mitt Romney said he thought the US should "double" the number of prisoners held in Guantanamo Bay Cuba.

    In the same exchange, former New York Mayor Rudy Giuliani noted again his service in New York following the Sept. 11 attacks and said he would support interrogators using a wide range of means to elicit confessions from suspected terrorists. Moderator Chris Wallace asked if Giuliani would support the use of waterboarding -- a controversial interrogation tactic some say is torture because it makes detainees believe they are drowning.

    "Whatever they can think of," Giuliani said.

    Romney said suspected terrorists need to be kept off American soil and he supported the use of "enhanced interrogation techniques" with the approval of the president.

    It's a stupidity contest.

    I'd like to see these three guys be asked about marijuana reform and see how their (reefer mad, backwards, hateful, ignorant) answers float with the public.

    •  Propaganda? (0+ / 0-)

      Seriously?

      I guess it depends on what color glasses you view it through.

      Personally, I think the show's a condemnation of the way the current Admin. does things.

      •  Then we just disagree. (3+ / 0-)

        I think it exists to make people comfortable with anti-Islamic hysteria and to reduce public resistance to torture.

        •  How So? (0+ / 0-)

          The bad guys are a russian general and a psychotic father of bauers this season.

          They actually had an arab who was a good guy this season.  Ok so they also had a bad guy arab but the show doesn't portray them all as terrorists.

          Sounds like you don't watch the show and that's cool - but blanket statements (anti-Islamic hysteria) using false facts doesn't bolster your argument here.

          •  I am reflecting on bits I have seen in the past (1+ / 0-)

            Recommended by:
            Canadian Reader

            at friend's homes.

            I won't watch it but have seen enough. In several episodes the stuff I comment about just leaps out at me. Anti-Muslim themes, pro-torture scenes in particular.

            And among other things...it's FOX.

            And the GOP debate last night in which Romney or Guiliani said "I'm look for Jack Bauer" during their brief celebration of Gitmo and torture.

            Another thing is simply the impact of TV.

            Apparently a program called CSI is SO popular it has impacted the jury trial process at times as jurors somehow expect clues to come up like on TV.

            The TV is the most powerful attitude adjuster known.

            •  TV (0+ / 0-)

              A lot of people just turn the damn thing off - or watch nothing but PBS.

              I fall in to the latter camp with a few exceptions.

            •  Then you missed the interesting parts... (0+ / 0-)

              where the VPOTUS gets arrested for conspiracy and the killing of President Palmer so that he could become POTUS.

              The guy's wife turned him in...

              Lots of different types of bad guys--including a guy who used his daughter's unwitting fiance in a plot with a bomb. I don't quite know what happened after that...but Bauer didn't get caught in LA traffic.

              Mariachi Mama Candidate Bickering Moratorium! Signatory to the Carnacki Petition

              by kredwyn on Wed May 16, 2007 at 09:10:55 AM PDT

              [ Parent ]

          •  Don't forget the crazy gov't types (0+ / 0-)

            wandering around killing folks in cynical attempts to take over and become POTUS...only to get arrested.

            Mariachi Mama Candidate Bickering Moratorium! Signatory to the Carnacki Petition

            by kredwyn on Wed May 16, 2007 at 08:56:14 AM PDT

            [ Parent ]

        •  So what kind of propaganda was it when (0+ / 0-)

          Jack did in the creepy, Nixon like Prez last year?  

          Next year I’ll bet Jack takes down the evil Cheney like VP Noah Daniels who is being played brilliantly by Powers Booth.

          Carry the battle to them. Don't let them bring it to you. Put them on the defensive and don't ever apologize for anything. Harry S. Truman

          by deepsouthdoug on Wed May 16, 2007 at 08:36:40 AM PDT

          [ Parent ]

    •  Agreed - neocon propaganda (1+ / 0-)

      Recommended by:
      Canadian Reader

      Rush Limbaugh meets with the producers, Laura Ingraham hawks the show constantly on her program - wingnuts do love them some 24 because it validates their point of view. In the 24 world, terrorists are everywhere, we need surveillance on all Americans, and when we catch a terrorist - I mean, a suspect - it's fine to take the gloves off and work him over with a blowtorch until he starts yappin'!

      It's porn for right-wingers and designed to massage American opinion to accord with the Pentagon PsyOps war on Americans.

      Every day's another chance to stick it to The Man. - dls.

      by The Raven on Wed May 16, 2007 at 08:30:09 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

  •  Sigh.... Again? (7+ / 0-)

    Didn't we do this in February when the quote from U.S. Army Brigadier General Patrick Finnegan actually happened.

    It is a TV show.  If the instructors at West Point are not able to combat the influence of a fictional TV show, then perhaps there is something wrong with their instruction, not the TV show.

    Now excuse me.  I have to stick my hand in a garbage disposal.  Thanks to Heroes I have reason to believe it will grow back.

    "A problem has been detected and Bush has been shut down to prevent damage to your country."

    by ArgusRun on Wed May 16, 2007 at 08:31:43 AM PDT

  •  Hey, it's just entertainment. (0+ / 0-)

    And most of it's putting a needle in someone who almost cerertainly has the key to setting off a nuclear bomb, which is about to go off.

    Relax and enjoy it, man.

  •  Perhaps I'm being dogmatic, but... (3+ / 0-)

    Recommended by:
    Canadian Reader, phenry, Neon Mama

    ...have those who are dismissing this suggestion out of hand actually read the article linked above? Have you considered the claim, made by a Brigadier General, that the show has "promoted unethical and illegal behavior and... adversely affected the training and performance of real American soldiers"?

    I'm not really as inflexible as the diary may suggest-- I was just trying to get this up quickly. Maybe I'll post another diary about this in a few days that raises the question in a more open-ended fashion.

    I know that there are corrupt administration officials depicted on the show, and it's laughably improbable, etc. However, I think it's hard to dimiss the fact that the show seems to have made many more people in this country more comfortable with torture. I find that very troubling.

  •  A note on popular culture and politics. (4+ / 0-)

    I'm a little surprised at the extent to which people are willing to dismiss the connection between popular culture and politics. Don't the things we watch/read/listen to, etc, affect the way we think?

    As an example, consider the argument of the recent book, Inventing Human Rights, which argues that, in the 18th and 19th centuries, "the popular novel fostered a sense of individuality in their audience and empathy for their subjects, most frequently 'regular folks' rather than nobles, royalty, or saints." According to the author, these forms of popular art played an important role in establishing the idea of "human rights."

    Just a thought.

    •  Of course, we're affected by our popular culture (3+ / 0-)

      Recommended by:
      Canadian Reader, jxg, shaharazade

      Those that suggest otherwise are being dishonest -- mostly with themselves.Just because most of us sit at home, and never get involved with violating human rights of civilians in war settings, doesn't mean that those who are in the fight aren't influenced by the culture. Don't just look at our soldiers. Look at the police in this country, I'm sure there has been thousands of comment critical of the police on this site -- maybe more than a few critical of a "culture of violence" and disregard of the rights of citizens. Where do they learn their "culture?"

      Coming Soon -- to an Internet connection near you: Armisticeproject.org

      by FischFry on Wed May 16, 2007 at 08:56:04 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

  •  It's ...just... a ... TV... show... (1+ / 0-)

    Recommended by:
    Subversive

    Wake the hell up!

    Use it as a dialog starter, a chance to get your thoughts on the table...

    It shows the dangers of an incompetentor corrupt administration as well as the dangers of foreign extremism. On the whole, pretty balanced, I'd say.

    Besides Kiefer is kinda cute.

    "As God is my witness, I thought wingnuts could fly".

    by Niniane on Wed May 16, 2007 at 08:44:58 AM PDT

    •  And you're not a soldier (0+ / 0-)

      Whose behavior is being influenced by the show. Even the military is concerned, not just the diarist.

      Coming Soon -- to an Internet connection near you: Armisticeproject.org

      by FischFry on Wed May 16, 2007 at 08:47:19 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  Just kinda curious... (0+ / 0-)

        but where does Free Will come into play? The soldier can choose to not be influenced into torturing others by the show...just as he/she can choose to be influenced, or not, by the teachings of Christ.

        The soldier is influenced by a lot of things...including his/her officers and people up the chain of command. If the Chain of Command frowns on torture, the odds are pretty good that the soldier isn't going to be ordered to "soften" someone up for interrogation.

        For me, the problem isn't Jack Bauer's actions. It's the fact that members of the hierarchy have pointed out that Geneva Conventions are quaint and have, in the past, authorized behaviour that it ultimately questionable re: interrogation tactics. Bauer is fiction. The latter? That's cold reality.

        Mariachi Mama Candidate Bickering Moratorium! Signatory to the Carnacki Petition

        by kredwyn on Wed May 16, 2007 at 10:22:36 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

    •  Do We Get to Tell the Republicans... (0+ / 0-)

      .....that their diatribes and talking points against the Hollywood liberal elite for brainwashing the people of this country with their left wing movies and TV shows are all silliness...that it is all just a "dialog starter"..?

      After all...

      Its. Just. A. TV. Show.

      .

      "Every good Christian should line up and kick Jerry Falwell's ass." ------Barry Goldwater

      by chicagorich on Wed May 16, 2007 at 08:48:27 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

    •  It's a tv show that DOESN'T CONDEMN torture. (0+ / 0-)

      It's not enough that it sometimes shows torture as bad. The problem is that it sometimes shows it as good, or at least urgently necessary and heroic.

      The minute you have a show that tries to be "balanced" about torture, you've moved the window.

      You don't need to have a "dialog" about torture. You need to have a culture that unequvocally, always, forever, without any exceptions made for circumstances, condemns torture and torturers. Torture needs to be beyond the pale.

      Folly is fractal: the closer you look at it, the more of it there is.

      by Canadian Reader on Wed May 16, 2007 at 11:35:47 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

  •  My name is Sayid Jarrah... and (1+ / 0-)

    Recommended by:
    karateexplosions

    I take great offense to this:

    Jack Bauer is a torturer-- perhaps the most popular torturer in the history of American popular culturer.

    We all know that this is not true.  Grabs a pair of pliers

  •  What I don't understand (1+ / 0-)

    Recommended by:
    neroden

    is why Sutherland, who comes from a left Canadian political family, his grandfather was Tommy Douglas the head of the NDP and he himself did a film for the NDP, would do such a show.  I know, I know.  Money.  But he's a big enough name to have the ability to choose other money-making projects.

    Shill, Shill, Shill.

    by Paleo on